since I wrote this piece the IBA and Umar Kremlev, head of the IBA and Putin's pal, have been caught in a lie. They began this lie to try to discredit the IOC. Why? Because the IOC dumped the IBA last year and isn't allowing athletes to compete using the Russian flag. Khelif is a victim of Russian disinformation. source:BBC
Hi Ronke, Raveen here from Medium and Substack. Nice to see you on this platform.
'Conservatives have found a target and are foaming at the mouth to destroy her.'
Far-right-wing, strongly conservative beliefs are so damaging because they appeal to people's strong emotions and insecurities....hence, they're quite effective in manipulating people and turning them against each other.
I’m blown away by your uncle’s comment. The Nigerian women I have met have been beautiful and regal. I’m thinking of one woman in particular I met in College who seemed mesmerizingly charming even to me, a woman. I think your uncle was intimidated.
Maybe, but it was also a long time ago when people in Austria had not seen a lot of African women and had a very Western idea of what anyone (not just women) should look like.
The AI-generated image you used in this post is another glaring example of how dominant cultural narratives play into the construct of desirable expression of femininity. I don't know, of course, what verbiage you used to generate the image, but the resulting picture suggests to me that the WOC boxer was generated using culturally prescribed "white woman" characteristics and then simply drawn with darker skin to signify race. It reminds me of when I worked for Mattel, back in the days when they started making Black Barbie dolls. The original Black Barbie was the same doll as the white Barbie, the only difference being coloring. It was only later that the company adjusted the doll to have features more representative of a person of African descent. I think it's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing: are these whitewashed images of Black women the source, or are they the result, of white supremacy's insistence that Black women should be evaluated based on white concepts of beauty and femininity? I don't know how it started in regards to mass media, but at this point I suppose it's a vicious circle.
I've seen a lot of articles about this issue but none of them said anything about Khelif's beauty or lack thereof. As far as I know there has been no confirmation about Khelif's chromosomes, or whether she does in fact have a DSD, though it seems odd that she did not contest the IBA's findings. If I were a woman accused of being male and barred from a competition because of it, I'd be eager to disprove it.
Have you also seen the comments on all of social media? The avalanche of hateful messages saying she looks like a man? The edited pictures pretending she has a penis? These people don’t write articles. They write abuse on social media.
There is absolutely no proof for your claim that she has DSD. The IBA is a corrupt organization that disqualified her because the Russian chairman didn’t like that she defeated the Russian boxer; there was no point contesting the claim because she wouldn’t have won no matter what. There are reasons why the IBA is no longer recognized by the IOC….
Also, why would she be obliged to show anyone a chromosome test to stop them from making up accusations about her? No other boxer has been asked to deliver a a chromosome test. Let’s not forget that the Hungarian she fought in the next round was way bigger and more muscular than her. Still, no one asked her to prove she was a woman, did they? Well, no, she’s blonde and white, and her face is rounder, so she surely doesn’t have DSD, right? I don’t think that people have any clue what someone who has DSD looks like, so for your enjoyment, I’m leaving you a picture of intersex woman Alicia Roth Weigel
I have no idea if she has a DSD. I’m pretty sure that in general you can’t tell just by looking at someone. I haven't seen the hate on social media because apart from reading a few articles here on Substack I don't pay attention to SM (because it's generally unpleasant). As to the IBA, even if that's the reason she was disqualified, that disqualification will follow her around - submitting proof would shut down the criticism and speculation and would save her a lot of stress. I believe they used to test for sex (until 1999?), as far as I know with a simple cheek swab.
I don't know what world you live in. In the one where I live, "submitting proof" is a) not something a person should have to do in this situation, b) no guarantee that said "proof" will be recognized - as is obvious by all the haters who continue to attack Khelif in spite of the IOC's assertion that she is eligible to compete as the woman she is, c) a dogwhistle for expecting marginalized people to constantly spend inordinate amounts of time and energy justifying their existence to oppressors who will never honor that "proof" when it is delivered to them.
A cheek swab, which used to be routine in the Olympics, does not take time or energy, and would have proved the IBA wrong. If I was wrongly accused - essentially of cheating - and there was such an easy way to prove it, I would certainly do it to remove all doubt.
The other answer here is: Why should she bother? As far as the IOC is concerned, she is eligible to compete. Beyond that, it's really nobody else's business. She doesn't owe you or anyone else an answer.
There's a reason they stopped using that test. Because it's not that simple. The science that assumed it was that simple has long since become more complex and nuanced.
Remember in 1983 or so, Donald Trump, who was in the process of driving two Casinos into bankruptcy, objected to a tribe in Connecticut opening a Casino (where he wanted to open a Casino) in a Congressional hearing, stating, “They don’t look like Indians to me.” It is a way to discriminate and to hurt others, which has nothing to do with reality. Fortunately, the Chairman of that hearing was having none of it.
I have no particular belief about this situation, I have no idea if she has a DSD or not. Sex tests aren't complicated though, and if they did one I'd believe whatever the results showed.
Well, there's all kinds of crazy on the internet. Luckily not so much in the real world. To me she looks androgynous (in the face; her body looks male to me, though of course that doesn't mean it *is*), but I've got butch lesbian friends who look equally masculine.
It is not true that sex tests are not complicated. While administering a particular test may not be difficult, making any kind of factual, relevant, or definitive conclusion based on results is extremely complicated because human biological sex is extremely complicated and, per the science, cannot be simplified to testimony levels or chromosomes, as is immediately obvious from the graphic in this article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-the-extraordinary-complexity-of-sex-determination/
(While this Olympic thing has nothing to do with trans issues, there are trans women who insist they’re biological women, so a person’s word clearly isn’t always reliable, not to mention that 5-ARD males often look female at birth).
The impression I got from the IBA's official statement was that they were not able to release the results of the two tests for confidentiality reasons (a legal issue? I have no idea), and to ask the IOC (who did see the results).
I’m not okay with this. The person asking was the person affected. It was preventing her from knowing why. This was not about confidentiality. This was BS. They refused to allow her to see the test.
I haven't seen anything about that, but it doesn't make sense - they could have contested the findings (they didn't), in which case surely they'd have to be told what the findings were, wouldn't they? It's also my understanding the test results were given to the IOC. Where did you read about this?
The Sue - how so you know she didn't contest the IBA's claim? Do you know that for a fact, or is it an assumption based on a lack of information about it?
So on other words, no credible source, considering that other things you've said in this thread have been corrected. I'm not trying to be an ass by harping on this. My point is that it's really dangerous and unfair to interpret people's actions based on questionable sources, especially when that judgement is based on assumptions about that person's motivation that are based on nothing more than what you think you would do in the same situation. You have made it clear you don't have a lot of details about the entire sequence of events; you don't know Khelif personally, and therefore don't have any knowledge whatsoever about how she tends to respond to challenges such as this; you don't know anything about the culture in which she was raised, which may have a significant influence on how she would likely respond. Given all of that, it is not at all fair to give this one point any weight in considering the truth of the entire situation. And it is really the only point you have, so it seems really disingenuous to consider it important at all.
....It's sort of funny when you think about it, that one of the worst insults dished out to a woman is that they look like a man. What does that say about men and the people that say it as an insult?
I say this as someone who has had that comparison made to them frequently, and cried and felt horrible I wasn't feminine enough. I don't give a shit now.
since I wrote this piece the IBA and Umar Kremlev, head of the IBA and Putin's pal, have been caught in a lie. They began this lie to try to discredit the IOC. Why? Because the IOC dumped the IBA last year and isn't allowing athletes to compete using the Russian flag. Khelif is a victim of Russian disinformation. source:BBC
https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cq5dd2lz8y8o
Hi Ronke, Raveen here from Medium and Substack. Nice to see you on this platform.
'Conservatives have found a target and are foaming at the mouth to destroy her.'
Far-right-wing, strongly conservative beliefs are so damaging because they appeal to people's strong emotions and insecurities....hence, they're quite effective in manipulating people and turning them against each other.
Hi Raveen,
Good to see you here on Substack 👋
Maybe we should be questioning the humanity of those who question the status of a woman who does not look like they do…
I’m blown away by your uncle’s comment. The Nigerian women I have met have been beautiful and regal. I’m thinking of one woman in particular I met in College who seemed mesmerizingly charming even to me, a woman. I think your uncle was intimidated.
Maybe, but it was also a long time ago when people in Austria had not seen a lot of African women and had a very Western idea of what anyone (not just women) should look like.
I agree though, Nigerian women are beautiful
The AI-generated image you used in this post is another glaring example of how dominant cultural narratives play into the construct of desirable expression of femininity. I don't know, of course, what verbiage you used to generate the image, but the resulting picture suggests to me that the WOC boxer was generated using culturally prescribed "white woman" characteristics and then simply drawn with darker skin to signify race. It reminds me of when I worked for Mattel, back in the days when they started making Black Barbie dolls. The original Black Barbie was the same doll as the white Barbie, the only difference being coloring. It was only later that the company adjusted the doll to have features more representative of a person of African descent. I think it's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing: are these whitewashed images of Black women the source, or are they the result, of white supremacy's insistence that Black women should be evaluated based on white concepts of beauty and femininity? I don't know how it started in regards to mass media, but at this point I suppose it's a vicious circle.
Yes, AI Generators have all societal biases deeply baked in, I've written about this before
I've seen a lot of articles about this issue but none of them said anything about Khelif's beauty or lack thereof. As far as I know there has been no confirmation about Khelif's chromosomes, or whether she does in fact have a DSD, though it seems odd that she did not contest the IBA's findings. If I were a woman accused of being male and barred from a competition because of it, I'd be eager to disprove it.
Have you also seen the comments on all of social media? The avalanche of hateful messages saying she looks like a man? The edited pictures pretending she has a penis? These people don’t write articles. They write abuse on social media.
There is absolutely no proof for your claim that she has DSD. The IBA is a corrupt organization that disqualified her because the Russian chairman didn’t like that she defeated the Russian boxer; there was no point contesting the claim because she wouldn’t have won no matter what. There are reasons why the IBA is no longer recognized by the IOC….
Also, why would she be obliged to show anyone a chromosome test to stop them from making up accusations about her? No other boxer has been asked to deliver a a chromosome test. Let’s not forget that the Hungarian she fought in the next round was way bigger and more muscular than her. Still, no one asked her to prove she was a woman, did they? Well, no, she’s blonde and white, and her face is rounder, so she surely doesn’t have DSD, right? I don’t think that people have any clue what someone who has DSD looks like, so for your enjoyment, I’m leaving you a picture of intersex woman Alicia Roth Weigel
I have no idea if she has a DSD. I’m pretty sure that in general you can’t tell just by looking at someone. I haven't seen the hate on social media because apart from reading a few articles here on Substack I don't pay attention to SM (because it's generally unpleasant). As to the IBA, even if that's the reason she was disqualified, that disqualification will follow her around - submitting proof would shut down the criticism and speculation and would save her a lot of stress. I believe they used to test for sex (until 1999?), as far as I know with a simple cheek swab.
I don't know what world you live in. In the one where I live, "submitting proof" is a) not something a person should have to do in this situation, b) no guarantee that said "proof" will be recognized - as is obvious by all the haters who continue to attack Khelif in spite of the IOC's assertion that she is eligible to compete as the woman she is, c) a dogwhistle for expecting marginalized people to constantly spend inordinate amounts of time and energy justifying their existence to oppressors who will never honor that "proof" when it is delivered to them.
A cheek swab, which used to be routine in the Olympics, does not take time or energy, and would have proved the IBA wrong. If I was wrongly accused - essentially of cheating - and there was such an easy way to prove it, I would certainly do it to remove all doubt.
The other answer here is: Why should she bother? As far as the IOC is concerned, she is eligible to compete. Beyond that, it's really nobody else's business. She doesn't owe you or anyone else an answer.
There's a reason they stopped using that test. Because it's not that simple. The science that assumed it was that simple has long since become more complex and nuanced.
There's an old adage, "For those who believe, no proof is necessary; for those who don't, no proof is sufficient."
She could never provide enough evidence to quell the hate that has been generated by people who "know just by looking at them."
True!
Remember in 1983 or so, Donald Trump, who was in the process of driving two Casinos into bankruptcy, objected to a tribe in Connecticut opening a Casino (where he wanted to open a Casino) in a Congressional hearing, stating, “They don’t look like Indians to me.” It is a way to discriminate and to hurt others, which has nothing to do with reality. Fortunately, the Chairman of that hearing was having none of it.
I have no particular belief about this situation, I have no idea if she has a DSD or not. Sex tests aren't complicated though, and if they did one I'd believe whatever the results showed.
You maybe but the rabid internet mob wouldn't because according to them she "looks like a man" and therefore has to be one
Well, there's all kinds of crazy on the internet. Luckily not so much in the real world. To me she looks androgynous (in the face; her body looks male to me, though of course that doesn't mean it *is*), but I've got butch lesbian friends who look equally masculine.
True, unfortunately there are way too many crazy people on the Internet.
It is not true that sex tests are not complicated. While administering a particular test may not be difficult, making any kind of factual, relevant, or definitive conclusion based on results is extremely complicated because human biological sex is extremely complicated and, per the science, cannot be simplified to testimony levels or chromosomes, as is immediately obvious from the graphic in this article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-the-extraordinary-complexity-of-sex-determination/
If it’s that complicated, how can we know she’s a woman?
Because she says she is and there's no good reason to doubt her.
Exactly
Are you a woman? If so how do you know? Have you had a test?
Gosh, I have no idea!
(While this Olympic thing has nothing to do with trans issues, there are trans women who insist they’re biological women, so a person’s word clearly isn’t always reliable, not to mention that 5-ARD males often look female at birth).
Oops, spell checker ran amok. That's supposed to be *testosterone* levels
The IBA was asked for information and refused to reply. If there was a test, no one outside of the IBA has seen it.
The impression I got from the IBA's official statement was that they were not able to release the results of the two tests for confidentiality reasons (a legal issue? I have no idea), and to ask the IOC (who did see the results).
I’m not okay with this. The person asking was the person affected. It was preventing her from knowing why. This was not about confidentiality. This was BS. They refused to allow her to see the test.
I haven't seen anything about that, but it doesn't make sense - they could have contested the findings (they didn't), in which case surely they'd have to be told what the findings were, wouldn't they? It's also my understanding the test results were given to the IOC. Where did you read about this?
No the IOC has not been given the test results. Instead one of the labs that according to the IBA did the test has already denied this.
What you are doing is putting the onus of proving that this is a lie on the victim.
Can you provide a link to this denial by the lab? Thank you.
The Sue - how so you know she didn't contest the IBA's claim? Do you know that for a fact, or is it an assumption based on a lack of information about it?
I’ve read in numerous places that she initially contested it and then withdrew her dispute.
Not everyone has unlimited financial resources to sue/etc.
And what are those several places?
No idea, I'm not keeping a file or anything. But I've certainly seen numerous references to it.
So on other words, no credible source, considering that other things you've said in this thread have been corrected. I'm not trying to be an ass by harping on this. My point is that it's really dangerous and unfair to interpret people's actions based on questionable sources, especially when that judgement is based on assumptions about that person's motivation that are based on nothing more than what you think you would do in the same situation. You have made it clear you don't have a lot of details about the entire sequence of events; you don't know Khelif personally, and therefore don't have any knowledge whatsoever about how she tends to respond to challenges such as this; you don't know anything about the culture in which she was raised, which may have a significant influence on how she would likely respond. Given all of that, it is not at all fair to give this one point any weight in considering the truth of the entire situation. And it is really the only point you have, so it seems really disingenuous to consider it important at all.
....It's sort of funny when you think about it, that one of the worst insults dished out to a woman is that they look like a man. What does that say about men and the people that say it as an insult?
I say this as someone who has had that comparison made to them frequently, and cried and felt horrible I wasn't feminine enough. I don't give a shit now.